In one of your comments to my pieces, you said you were mulling over whether you'd finally publish an essay like this. Congrats on doing so! I enjoyed reading your insights and self-examinations.
Too many guys get addicted to the victim mentality, giving up without even trying then complaining that nobody listens to them.
Really appreciate you reading this and for the kind words. Without collapsing into sentimentality, your writing has always been an inspiration for me making sense of the world. I'm just annoyed that it took me over a year to get this one out.
At the end of the day, I can't help but vaguely feel that this piece merely substituted one kind of victim mentality for another on some level, lol. But I suppose it boils down to what kind of victimhood you're willing to accept, and perhaps an honest one is preferable to the kind of the too-cool-for-school affectation where you know you would never want to sit at the cool kids' table in a million years, and yet it still rankles when you didn't get an invitation.
It seems like a generation of ‘angry young men’ writers is a feminists worst nightmare, but it’s hard to grasp what’s so scary about it. If we’re not writing about male emotions we (men and women) are still experiencing them. I’ve seen literary-type women online make fun of men for not reading and writing as much as them, but a lot more seem greatly concerned with men who are genuinely interested in literature and creative expression. Can’t there be solidarity? I think women’s tolerance is important, because a lot of these stigmas you mention are rooted in men’s genuine desire to not make women upset.
>It seems like a generation of ‘angry young men’ writers is a feminists worst nightmare, but it’s hard to grasp what’s so scary about it.
I think there's a hope, however forlorn, that circumcising the language men might use to hash out their most pulsating, sexist impulses will allow those impulses to wither and die on the vine. I'm not totally unsympathetic to this- I read the article for the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis on Wikipedia- but given that hundreds of years of attempted male suppression of women's feelings failed to dim those feelings in any way, I don't think it's a project destined for success. We'll all start accepting male vulnerability more, only after we've exhausted everything else.
Even if every tiny objectification of women by men was suppressed, indeed, the totality of male lust was made unacceptable and totally immoral (which is not unheard of, indeed the early Christian era had a reaction to Greco-Roman sexuality in a similiar way, I don’t doubt the involvement of women in the early church contributed), these feelings will continue to exist and find an outlet in low-down culture, much like how prostitution has been regarded throughout history. it would be unbecoming to write about or mention until some new controversial movement of social realism in literature arose like it did in the 19th century.
Good essay - and really engaging in that vulnerability that other people are calling for. I also like your dense verbose style. Male vulnerability without the blanket of minimalism. Hope to see you published one day
Loved this essay -- it's not the same thing, but as a straight woman who finds imperfect, real-life masculinity fascinating and frequently attractive, I even find myself struggling with self-censorship in the way I write guy characters. Making them likable (in the publishing industry sense) often means sanding down the edges that bring men to complicated life and makes me want to write about them in the first place.
My favorite passage here is when you talk about all the ways you grew up not conforming to traditional masculinity and being victimized by it... And then point out how self-serving and creatively limiting it is to curate a persona based only on how you have been done wrong and not the wrong or questionable aspects of yourself. Both things can be true, and I hope you can write fiction toward the darkness in both directions.
Anyway, this is a great piece and I'm going to follow your substack going forward.
Thank you for the kind words! I'm very touched to hear that you find the piece enjoyable and that it's something that can speak to women as well as men.
It's interesting to hear that even women authors struggle with pressure trying to make their male characters more polished and marketable. From what I've seen, it's a double-edged sword: it's more difficult to accuse a female author who writes a male scumbag of secretly supporting sexism or assault, the way a male author writing a male scumbag might be. Yet at the same time, I've seen that a woman author can be more easily canceled by the crowd for displaying "internalized misogyny"; if she platforms such characters in even a vaguely positive light, it's more of a betrayal to her sex than if a man had done it. So it's a question that we all have to deal with, regardless of gender.
I appreciate your compliments on that passage as well! There's a lot of space for men to talk about their feelings on masculinity these days, but if it's brave and vulnerable for men to write on how traditional masculinity has failed them, it's also fundamentally dishonest to leave out the ways men might find "healthy masculinity" lacking, sometimes even the same men failed by traditional masculinity itself.
A large accusation I've heard around this topic is that male authors bringing up these trends just want to "be able to call women whores and be praised for it"- and to be sure, some authors probably do, because authors can be just as bigoted as the rest of us! But I think there needs to be some charitable middle ground between assuming male authors who write such characters must be incels in real life, and acknowledging that many men lack a culturally approved script to express the uneasy tensions between masculinity and being a good man (whatever that means) in a meaningful, honest way. At the end of the day, I hope this piece was able to pick at that discomfort in some fashion, however clumsily.
I’m embarrassed to say that this is the first time I’ve ever come across the name “Phaedra Starling.”
There are reasons related to my own work that I ought to have come across her (?) writing earlier, but thanks for including a mention in your piece; you’ve pointed me towards a new rabbit hole I need to explore.
For those not in the know, Phaedra Starling authored the renowned "Schrodinger's Rapist" essay that defined a large part of Internet Feminism back in the day: https://lirpa.substack.com/p/did-feminism-ruin-dating
Excellent post man. Very glad to hear that mine inspired you to get your thoughts out there. I also really enjoyed that fiction at the beginning, too. Hope you continue to flesh that out.
Thanks, man. It's still surreal that I get to read VICTIM, reach out to the author himself, and he leaves a supportive comment on my writing. Substack is really something. Like I said, I think your article will have far-reaching impacts beyond just the likes and comments and shares.
I think every writer has a graveyard of these kinds of raw, unfinished pieces on their hard drive somewhere. I don't know if I can pick up the initial thread of dark adolescent horniness that inspired that one- nor do I know if I'd want to- but I hope I can transmute it into something more meaningful down the line.
Very interesting read! I read Andrew's post some time ago and this one adds another layer to an important conversation, which hopefully will pick up steam. Being a man sure isn't always the privilege it's often made out to be.
Yesterday I shared some of my own experience in a post, as the smallest of contributions and written in a different style but touching on some of the same phenomenons, albeit more indirectly.
Funny thing is I’m a young guy and most of my guy friends are pretty into reading. It’s mostly classics or “deep” authors like McCarthy or Vonnegut. It seems like women read more but are more into genre fiction. Maybe nobody really cares about contemporary lit fic? Just a thought
As a male writer I can only conclude that any writer, male or female, needs to be true to thine self and to male/female reality. The sexes have a need to come together but political thought processes need to divide them. Literature needs to study the human condition without political warfare and tell the tales of human beings, just as historians tell the story of humankind. Sit around the camp fire and figure out the relationship of male to female instead of micro dissecting the two-parts of a whole. How important is it to know that boys like fart jokes and girls don't? It's more important to know that boys and girls need each other to achieve a satisfying completeness. And that is where literature comes in. If there are too many passive aggressive females in the publishing process, so be it. Live with it. And continue to write what you need to write. The truth will out ...eventually.
This was such a great essay. I'm still processing it, but in the meantime, an unsolicited (related) book recommendation: "Such Kindness" by Andre Dubus III. It was published within the past couple years and was one of my favorites I read last year. It focuses on a 50-something man who lost everything after a construction accident and subsequent pain pill addiction. He really explores the raw feelings he has. It's such a good book. The author is great in general. I highly recommend that book, at least, if you haven't read it already!
Thanks for the kind words! I checked out Andre Dubus' wikipedia page and his life story; I can only imagine the kinds of things he'd have to say about male interiority. God knows he'd have a lot of material.
Even his old (probably most well-known) book, "House of Sand and Fog,"* deals really interestingly with masculinity. I am going to read his memoir soon, Townie. I'm so interested in his story, and his writing is so beautiful and, I think, often a vulnerable window into "broken" men's lives. Really good stuff.
*the movie was okay, kind of, but not at all a good substitute for the book. The book is sooo much better.
In one of your comments to my pieces, you said you were mulling over whether you'd finally publish an essay like this. Congrats on doing so! I enjoyed reading your insights and self-examinations.
Too many guys get addicted to the victim mentality, giving up without even trying then complaining that nobody listens to them.
Really appreciate you reading this and for the kind words. Without collapsing into sentimentality, your writing has always been an inspiration for me making sense of the world. I'm just annoyed that it took me over a year to get this one out.
At the end of the day, I can't help but vaguely feel that this piece merely substituted one kind of victim mentality for another on some level, lol. But I suppose it boils down to what kind of victimhood you're willing to accept, and perhaps an honest one is preferable to the kind of the too-cool-for-school affectation where you know you would never want to sit at the cool kids' table in a million years, and yet it still rankles when you didn't get an invitation.
It seems like a generation of ‘angry young men’ writers is a feminists worst nightmare, but it’s hard to grasp what’s so scary about it. If we’re not writing about male emotions we (men and women) are still experiencing them. I’ve seen literary-type women online make fun of men for not reading and writing as much as them, but a lot more seem greatly concerned with men who are genuinely interested in literature and creative expression. Can’t there be solidarity? I think women’s tolerance is important, because a lot of these stigmas you mention are rooted in men’s genuine desire to not make women upset.
>It seems like a generation of ‘angry young men’ writers is a feminists worst nightmare, but it’s hard to grasp what’s so scary about it.
I think there's a hope, however forlorn, that circumcising the language men might use to hash out their most pulsating, sexist impulses will allow those impulses to wither and die on the vine. I'm not totally unsympathetic to this- I read the article for the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis on Wikipedia- but given that hundreds of years of attempted male suppression of women's feelings failed to dim those feelings in any way, I don't think it's a project destined for success. We'll all start accepting male vulnerability more, only after we've exhausted everything else.
Even if every tiny objectification of women by men was suppressed, indeed, the totality of male lust was made unacceptable and totally immoral (which is not unheard of, indeed the early Christian era had a reaction to Greco-Roman sexuality in a similiar way, I don’t doubt the involvement of women in the early church contributed), these feelings will continue to exist and find an outlet in low-down culture, much like how prostitution has been regarded throughout history. it would be unbecoming to write about or mention until some new controversial movement of social realism in literature arose like it did in the 19th century.
Good essay - and really engaging in that vulnerability that other people are calling for. I also like your dense verbose style. Male vulnerability without the blanket of minimalism. Hope to see you published one day
Thanks for the kind words. Never heard "dense verbose" used as a compliment before, lol.
I'll be the first to admit that discretion is not my strong suit when it comes to using commas.
Well you see who my avatar is haha
Loved this essay -- it's not the same thing, but as a straight woman who finds imperfect, real-life masculinity fascinating and frequently attractive, I even find myself struggling with self-censorship in the way I write guy characters. Making them likable (in the publishing industry sense) often means sanding down the edges that bring men to complicated life and makes me want to write about them in the first place.
My favorite passage here is when you talk about all the ways you grew up not conforming to traditional masculinity and being victimized by it... And then point out how self-serving and creatively limiting it is to curate a persona based only on how you have been done wrong and not the wrong or questionable aspects of yourself. Both things can be true, and I hope you can write fiction toward the darkness in both directions.
Anyway, this is a great piece and I'm going to follow your substack going forward.
Thank you for the kind words! I'm very touched to hear that you find the piece enjoyable and that it's something that can speak to women as well as men.
It's interesting to hear that even women authors struggle with pressure trying to make their male characters more polished and marketable. From what I've seen, it's a double-edged sword: it's more difficult to accuse a female author who writes a male scumbag of secretly supporting sexism or assault, the way a male author writing a male scumbag might be. Yet at the same time, I've seen that a woman author can be more easily canceled by the crowd for displaying "internalized misogyny"; if she platforms such characters in even a vaguely positive light, it's more of a betrayal to her sex than if a man had done it. So it's a question that we all have to deal with, regardless of gender.
I appreciate your compliments on that passage as well! There's a lot of space for men to talk about their feelings on masculinity these days, but if it's brave and vulnerable for men to write on how traditional masculinity has failed them, it's also fundamentally dishonest to leave out the ways men might find "healthy masculinity" lacking, sometimes even the same men failed by traditional masculinity itself.
A large accusation I've heard around this topic is that male authors bringing up these trends just want to "be able to call women whores and be praised for it"- and to be sure, some authors probably do, because authors can be just as bigoted as the rest of us! But I think there needs to be some charitable middle ground between assuming male authors who write such characters must be incels in real life, and acknowledging that many men lack a culturally approved script to express the uneasy tensions between masculinity and being a good man (whatever that means) in a meaningful, honest way. At the end of the day, I hope this piece was able to pick at that discomfort in some fashion, however clumsily.
I’m embarrassed to say that this is the first time I’ve ever come across the name “Phaedra Starling.”
There are reasons related to my own work that I ought to have come across her (?) writing earlier, but thanks for including a mention in your piece; you’ve pointed me towards a new rabbit hole I need to explore.
For those not in the know, Phaedra Starling authored the renowned "Schrodinger's Rapist" essay that defined a large part of Internet Feminism back in the day: https://lirpa.substack.com/p/did-feminism-ruin-dating
Excellent post man. Very glad to hear that mine inspired you to get your thoughts out there. I also really enjoyed that fiction at the beginning, too. Hope you continue to flesh that out.
Thanks, man. It's still surreal that I get to read VICTIM, reach out to the author himself, and he leaves a supportive comment on my writing. Substack is really something. Like I said, I think your article will have far-reaching impacts beyond just the likes and comments and shares.
I think every writer has a graveyard of these kinds of raw, unfinished pieces on their hard drive somewhere. I don't know if I can pick up the initial thread of dark adolescent horniness that inspired that one- nor do I know if I'd want to- but I hope I can transmute it into something more meaningful down the line.
I hope you can, too. Would love to see it out in the world. Best of luck!
I agree! It was immediately engaging. I hope we get to see more, too!
Very interesting read! I read Andrew's post some time ago and this one adds another layer to an important conversation, which hopefully will pick up steam. Being a man sure isn't always the privilege it's often made out to be.
Yesterday I shared some of my own experience in a post, as the smallest of contributions and written in a different style but touching on some of the same phenomenons, albeit more indirectly.
Funny thing is I’m a young guy and most of my guy friends are pretty into reading. It’s mostly classics or “deep” authors like McCarthy or Vonnegut. It seems like women read more but are more into genre fiction. Maybe nobody really cares about contemporary lit fic? Just a thought
As a male writer I can only conclude that any writer, male or female, needs to be true to thine self and to male/female reality. The sexes have a need to come together but political thought processes need to divide them. Literature needs to study the human condition without political warfare and tell the tales of human beings, just as historians tell the story of humankind. Sit around the camp fire and figure out the relationship of male to female instead of micro dissecting the two-parts of a whole. How important is it to know that boys like fart jokes and girls don't? It's more important to know that boys and girls need each other to achieve a satisfying completeness. And that is where literature comes in. If there are too many passive aggressive females in the publishing process, so be it. Live with it. And continue to write what you need to write. The truth will out ...eventually.
Please consider enabling TTS. I prefer passively listening as I do other things in general, it's more enjoyable. Cheers
https://support.substack.com/hc/en-us/articles/7265753724692-How-do-I-listen-to-a-Substack-post-
(Request form)
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This was such a great essay. I'm still processing it, but in the meantime, an unsolicited (related) book recommendation: "Such Kindness" by Andre Dubus III. It was published within the past couple years and was one of my favorites I read last year. It focuses on a 50-something man who lost everything after a construction accident and subsequent pain pill addiction. He really explores the raw feelings he has. It's such a good book. The author is great in general. I highly recommend that book, at least, if you haven't read it already!
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/04/books/review/such-kindness-andre-dubus.html
Thanks for the kind words! I checked out Andre Dubus' wikipedia page and his life story; I can only imagine the kinds of things he'd have to say about male interiority. God knows he'd have a lot of material.
Even his old (probably most well-known) book, "House of Sand and Fog,"* deals really interestingly with masculinity. I am going to read his memoir soon, Townie. I'm so interested in his story, and his writing is so beautiful and, I think, often a vulnerable window into "broken" men's lives. Really good stuff.
*the movie was okay, kind of, but not at all a good substitute for the book. The book is sooo much better.